Randomize Tank Spawn Plugin

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=KorJax link=topic=2330.msg66827#msg66827 date=1234660638]
Who honestly purchased L4D and expected a competitive game out of it?

I expected to play a co-op focused game, which means inherently it doesn't require or really thrive on a competitive slant to things.  And that's exactly what I got.

Problem is nobody seems to want to play campaign anymore. I get told off for saying I'd rather play campaign.

If you prefer campaign, please keep me in mind next time you want to play? <3
[/quote]
I could do campaign sometime

[Aerox]

[quote author=rumsfald link=topic=2330.msg66690#msg66690 date=1234583918]
Being the second team and being able to say "we're at the tractor trailer now, this is where we spawned the tank, get ready," runs counter to all of the other design choices in the game.

YES! Thank you Caff and Rummy for saying this as well. I was starting to think I was all by myself on this. <3

Right now, whoever is survivor second gets a massive advantage. They now know when to expect the tank and witch (assuming the other team made it that far). I know it still boils down to teamwork, but even in versus there have been plenty of times where a team was surprised by a tank (well, before this "fix"). Everyone always mentions some time when they got a tank right out of spawn, but after thinking about it tonight it's easy enough to fix just by having a checkpoint that the tank won't appear before, then let it potentially appear at anytime after that (if it even does).

I am thinking more and more that versus is really cocking the game up, and Valve really should be focusing on the SDK and more ways to play co-op.
[/quote]

I know this is a hotly contested topic, but I like the even tank spawns.  People often miss that the infected can often get just as big of a boost knowing where a tank spawns; saving your boomer and hunters for the tank can often mean completely wiping out the other team.  Ever tried to run away from a tank when all four survivors are blinded by puke?  It usually doesn't work very well.

It's not ideal, but really differences in tank spawning can usually mean the difference between dying and not dying.  If one team gets the tank in a big open area and another team gets the tank in a tiny alley with a bunch of punchable objects, the second team has pretty much no chance.  The way it is now, I really don't see it as that much of a huge gamebreaking advantage.  If the infected play properly, they can get just as much advantage out of knowing where the tank spawns as the survivors, and if it spawns in a crappy area then just park it somewhere where they're not expecting it.  You don't HAVE to charge at people head-on with the tank.  Take some time to sneak around a different way, or just give up control.  If people are complaining because the second team gets a chance to look for weapons and molotovs, then maybe the first team should be doing that anyway instead of sprinting as fast as they can towards the exit.

I've been playing games recently with typically fairly equal teams, and there really doesn't seem to be a huge difference between going first and going second.  I've won close games on both sides. The only time we had a problem was when one team got a tank spawn down at the elevator of NM4, and the other team got the spawn at the top of the shaft (technically very close to each other, except in height) while the survivors were still down at the bottom.

[Badgerman of DOOM]

The tank spawning in the same place evens out. The initial infected team might know where it is during the survivor run, but the initial survivor team will get to plan what to do with the tank as soon as the encounter it.

[Dave]

The tank spawning in the same place evens out. The initial infected team might know where it is during the survivor run, but the initial survivor team will get to plan what to do with the tank as soon as the encounter it.

wrong

[Blues]

There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

[KarthXLR]

There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.

[Blues]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.

Even if one team is a better survivor team than the other, if they get more hoards or less items, then they may lose. The game just isn't even.

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.

[Dave]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67628#msg67628 date=1235022353]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.
[/quote]

no, we are saying that one team will know where the tank is, and the other team wont, that in itself makes the game unballanced, nothing can change that.

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67733#msg67733 date=1235080235]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67628#msg67628 date=1235022353]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.
[/quote]

no, we are saying that one team will know where the tank is, and the other team wont, that in itself makes the game unballanced, nothing can change that.
[/quote]
Thank you for completely ignoring the post you just quoted.

[Dave]

[quote author=Dave link=topic=2330.msg67761#msg67761 date=1235082513]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67733#msg67733 date=1235080235]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67628#msg67628 date=1235022353]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.
[/quote]

no, we are saying that one team will know where the tank is, and the other team wont, that in itself makes the game unballanced, nothing can change that.
[/quote]
Thank you for completely ignoring the post you just quoted.
[/quote]

no im saying your point of:

They would know about the tank as well

as well?
no the first team doesnt.

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67763#msg67763 date=1235082622]
[quote author=Dave link=topic=2330.msg67761#msg67761 date=1235082513]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67733#msg67733 date=1235080235]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67628#msg67628 date=1235022353]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.
[/quote]

no, we are saying that one team will know where the tank is, and the other team wont, that in itself makes the game unballanced, nothing can change that.
[/quote]
Thank you for completely ignoring the post you just quoted.
[/quote]

no im saying your point of:

They would know about the tank as well

as well?
no the first team doesnt.


[/quote]
Your still ignoring this.

On the second play-through, both the infected and the survivors know that the tank will appear <location> so they both have chances to prepare.

[Dave]

[quote author=Dave link=topic=2330.msg67765#msg67765 date=1235082804]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67763#msg67763 date=1235082622]
[quote author=Dave link=topic=2330.msg67761#msg67761 date=1235082513]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67733#msg67733 date=1235080235]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67628#msg67628 date=1235022353]
[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2330.msg67623#msg67623 date=1235020743]
[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67621#msg67621 date=1235019290]
There is literally no possible way to even out the teams for vs mode. It takes all of 30 seconds to come to this conclusion, and I cannot figure out why people are STILL contesting it. Not just here, I mean in L4D as a whole. I see posts everywhere I go about how to even it out, or about how it's uneven and needs a fix, etc.

Left 4 Dead cannot be even in versus, ever. /thread

It can in theory.

But it comes down to one simple fact:

If even one person on your team sucks, you're going to lose.

I can guarantee that.
[/quote]

No, it can't in theory or in reality. Tank spawns, witch spawns, hoard spawns/sizes/locations, item locations/spawns, and what order the spawns for infected are in can either be random, or the same. If they're random, it's not even, if they're the same, one team gets an advantage by knowing what's coming.
[/quote]

Now, I actually agree with you right here.

But you're ignoring something. What about the infected team? They would know about the tank as well, wouldn't they want to ambush them? It evens out in terms of "option".

You can choose to throw your team at the survivors and miss an opportunity of an ambush, or plan an ambush and see how it pans out.
[/quote]

no, we are saying that one team will know where the tank is, and the other team wont, that in itself makes the game unballanced, nothing can change that.
[/quote]
Thank you for completely ignoring the post you just quoted.
[/quote]

no im saying your point of:

They would know about the tank as well

as well?
no the first team doesnt.


[/quote]
Your still ignoring this.

On the second play-through, both the infected and the survivors know that the tank will appear <location> so they both have chances to prepare.
[/quote]

and on the first they wouldnt.

[Blues]

At this point I'm beginning to wonder if Karth has ever played L4D versus mode.

[KarthXLR]

At this point I'm beginning to wonder if Karth has ever played L4D versus mode.

I have and I've never had a problem with same spawn tank.

And besides, if you're as good as I remember you are, I can understand why you hate the other team knowing where the tank spawns.

[Dave]

[quote author=Blues link=topic=2330.msg67782#msg67782 date=1235083622]
At this point I'm beginning to wonder if Karth has ever played L4D versus mode.

I have and I've never had a problem with same spawn tank.

And besides, if you're as good as I remember you are, I can understand why you hate the other team knowing where the tank spawns.
[/quote]

smack talk cause you know your wrong

what a child molester.

[KarthXLR]

smack talk cause you know your wrong

what a child molester.

suck MY dick zane,

[Scary Womanizing Pig Mask]

Since when does Versus mode need to be balanced? The whole reason Valve didn't make it the default was because it proved impossible to make fair. That's the point though, it's a fun, unserious mode.

[Blues]

Since when does Versus mode need to be balanced? The whole reason Valve didn't make it the default was because it proved impossible to make fair. That's the point though, it's a fun, unserious mode.

It doesn't need to be at all, it's just that people keep complaining that it does/is, and it isn't and never will be because there is no way to make it equal period.

[ScottyGrayskull]

Since when does Versus mode need to be balanced? The whole reason Valve didn't make it the default was because it proved impossible to make fair. That's the point though, it's a fun, unserious mode.

That's my gripe. I don't mind the random mess. What bugs me is that their attempts to "balance" versus are making the mode just another by the numbers team based fps with fewer and fewer surprises.