Books motherfuckers, do you read them?

[Eschatos]

dear lord, please consult someone who's actually been in a firefight before writing any crazy Mr and Mrs Smith type shit. 

Come on. Don't tell me this isn't real life.
Wanted Curving Bullets

[Surf314]

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=1145.msg245278#msg245278 date=1337115300]
[quote author=Azure_Angel link=topic=1145.msg245275#msg245275 date=1337111097]
I've started writing a book. The current working title is, "Fall of the North." It deals with a civil war in modern America, and how it could have the potential to spread across the continent. The story takes place in the closing years of the civil war from the eyes of a soldier in the Arizona army, and recounts the entire war from it's beginnings.

That's all I'll say for now, but I'd love some feedback.

You should read a comic called DMZ by Brian Wood, but only if you think it won't influence your writing too strongly. The comic is an excellent take on a modern day Civil War and could help you think of issues you need to address and POV stories and so on. But again it depends on how you react to reading similar ideas. I think it's probably different enough that you would be safe, it has strong hip hop and street influences as well as being mainly through the lens of 9/11, terrorism, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I know people have different ideas on whether to read other materials. I like to have as much information as possible, but others are rightly concerned that it will effect their own writing too much. So I give this recommendation with the previous caveat.
[/quote]

I think I'll take a look at it. I'm confident in my writing, and my plot to know I won't be influenced. I've been trying to create this story for a year or so. Originally tried to write it as a movie before I realized I was going in depth far more than a script needs to be.
[/quote]

It's one of my favorite comics by one of my favorite writers. I kinda stopped reading it though because I got really upset about something I'm not going to ruin. But it wasn't bad writing, I think I just wanted a certain character to be more perfect then they turned out to be.

[Azure_Angel]

[quote author=LT Crow link=topic=1145.msg245324#msg245324 date=1337150547]
dear lord, please consult someone who's actually been in a firefight before writing any crazy Mr and Mrs Smith type shit. 

Come on. Don't tell me this isn't real life.
Wanted Curving Bullets
[/quote]

Blegh both those movies need to be destroyed... And Angelina Jolie needs to just retire.

[A. Crow]

[quote author=Eschatos link=topic=1145.msg245338#msg245338 date=1337182394]
[quote author=LT Crow link=topic=1145.msg245324#msg245324 date=1337150547]
dear lord, please consult someone who's actually been in a firefight before writing any crazy Mr and Mrs Smith type shit. 

Come on. Don't tell me this isn't real life.
Wanted Curving Bullets
[/quote]

Blegh both those movies need to be destroyed... And Angelina Jolie needs to just retire.
[/quote]

I can suspend reality for comic book movies, but still, this part of ironman has always bothered me, no, not the fact that the suit even works, but that it isn't torn to fucking shreds by gunfire, steel that thin doesn't stop everything.  Especially not the M2 .50 cal at 0:55. 
Iron Man (4/9) Movie CLIP - My Turn (2008) HD

Without putting too fine a point on it, I've put large holes in larger and thicker targets than than the (maybe) 1/2" thick steel ironman is rocking with a .50 cal.  It's such an amazing instrument of destruction, that's why it's been in service damn near completely unchanged for nearly 80 years.  Hell, you don't even have to be hit by the round, if it comes close, you're scared for life. 

[rumsfald]

Hey comicbookguy, you're talking about the marvel universe where every other toilet is plated with adamantium.

[Didzo]

It's one of my favorite comics by one of my favorite writers. I kinda stopped reading it though because I got really upset about something I'm not going to ruin. But it wasn't bad writing, I think I just wanted a certain character to be more perfect then they turned out to be.

:-\

[Azure_Angel]

I'm still looking for feedback other than reference material. I don't want to be pushy, I've just never written a book before and would like some help in any form.

[Surf314]

[quote author=Eschatos link=topic=1145.msg245338#msg245338 date=1337182394]
[quote author=LT Crow link=topic=1145.msg245324#msg245324 date=1337150547]
dear lord, please consult someone who's actually been in a firefight before writing any crazy Mr and Mrs Smith type shit. 

Come on. Don't tell me this isn't real life.
Wanted Curving Bullets
[/quote]

Blegh both those movies need to be destroyed... And Angelina Jolie needs to just retire.
[/quote]

Wanted was one of the most godawful comics I've ever read. If you ever see it in a book store and are thinking about reading it, skip to the last page and that will tell you everything you need to know.

Also as far as feedback on your idea, I think it could be fantastic. What I like about that kind of setting is that you can really dig into issues about things that divide us. On a personal level you can examine the psychology of having to fight against people you know and the crumbling of a world view. You can paint a stark contrast between your character at the beginning of the story versus the end. People tend to want to see main characters changed by the story (except in the comic Lucifer in which the whole point was basically that he is immovable).

As far as writing, I tried to write a novel a few times and from what I've read on the topic and what defeated me I think the best advice is just to write all the time. Set aside periods of your day that you just write. Also try to find it enjoyable, Terry Pratchett often comments that he enjoys writing and not having written like most authors. Don't worry about feeling like what you are writing isn't good, you will probably have to throw a lot of it out in the rewriting process no matter what. The important thing is getting your ideas down so you can see what you like and what you don't. The last thing is don't get too attached to your work that you can't look at it objectively and say this needs to go or I need to go in a new direction with this to make the story work the way I want it to.

[at0m]

We've missed you, Surf.

Azure: I'd be thrilled to read a manuscript or partial manuscript and give you feedback, but its tough to give much meaningful feedback for just a plot blurb. Any feedback would be longer than the blurb itself 0_o. It sounds interesting, though, and I'd love to see where you go with it.

[Surf314]

This is the last panel of Wanted btw:


Text reads: This is my face while I'm fucking you in the ass.

[Azure_Angel]

[quote author=Azure_Angel link=topic=1145.msg245353#msg245353 date=1337190580]
[quote author=Eschatos link=topic=1145.msg245338#msg245338 date=1337182394]
[quote author=LT Crow link=topic=1145.msg245324#msg245324 date=1337150547]
dear lord, please consult someone who's actually been in a firefight before writing any crazy Mr and Mrs Smith type shit. 

Come on. Don't tell me this isn't real life.
Wanted Curving Bullets
[/quote]

Blegh both those movies need to be destroyed... And Angelina Jolie needs to just retire.
[/quote]

Wanted was one of the most godawful comics I've ever read. If you ever see it in a book store and are thinking about reading it, skip to the last page and that will tell you everything you need to know.

Also as far as feedback on your idea, I think it could be fantastic. What I like about that kind of setting is that you can really dig into issues about things that divide us. On a personal level you can examine the psychology of having to fight against people you know and the crumbling of a world view. You can paint a stark contrast between your character at the beginning of the story versus the end. People tend to want to see main characters changed by the story (except in the comic Lucifer in which the whole point was basically that he is immovable).

As far as writing, I tried to write a novel a few times and from what I've read on the topic and what defeated me I think the best advice is just to write all the time. Set aside periods of your day that you just write. Also try to find it enjoyable, Terry Pratchett often comments that he enjoys writing and not having written like most authors. Don't worry about feeling like what you are writing isn't good, you will probably have to throw a lot of it out in the rewriting process no matter what. The important thing is getting your ideas down so you can see what you like and what you don't. The last thing is don't get too attached to your work that you can't look at it objectively and say this needs to go or I need to go in a new direction with this to make the story work the way I want it to.
[/quote]

Thanks! I've been trying just that, even if it's just writing 1 or 2 sentences a day.

We've missed you, Surf.

Azure: I'd be thrilled to read a manuscript or partial manuscript and give you feedback, but its tough to give much meaningful feedback for just a plot blurb. Any feedback would be longer than the blurb itself 0_o. It sounds interesting, though, and I'd love to see where you go with it.

When I have enough I'll send you a copy. Right now it's just a couple pages of meaningless intro that I keep rewriting.

[rumsfald]

I'm still looking for feedback other than reference material. I don't want to be pushy, I've just never written a book before and would like some help in any form.

As at0m mentioned, it's difficult to provide feedback at this point. If, by feedback, you want input regarding the substance of your writing. What you've given us so far is more of an "elevator pitch." You've been pretty clear that you are confident in your writing, so you are not looking feedback on your writing voice. You've also been clear that you are confident on the plot vision, so you are not looking for feedback on that.

So, I don't think many of us can provide you with feedback on your idea. But we can ask you provoking questions. The point of these provoking questions is for you to contemplate, not to answer. It is an exercise to help you flesh out your imagination.

What triggered the modern civil war?

What year does this occur? Are new war-waging technologies employed, or present-day tech? Do both sides have the same tech, or is one advantaged? Who has more drones?

How are the sides decided in this civil war?
- is it 2 sides, or more? What are they fighting for?
- do they break down by states? religious or political or economic or ethnic affiliation? (this will greatly determine how the battles will be fought. right now, if fundamentalist christians tried to secede, it would be the bible-belt states versus the rest, in traditional territorial capture and hold combat. however, if it's #Occupy versus the 1%, then it would be hit and run guerrilla warfare in urban centers)

- What does the US military do? What does the National Guard do? Does it differ by branch? Does the AZ National Guard go against what the federal DOD/Army does?

- How do the major US political interests take sides (democrat, republican, libertarian, green)?

- How do the major US religions take sides?

- What do other countries do in this conflict? Canada? Mexico? UK? Venezuela? North Korea? Iran? Russia? CHINA?

Are there intervening factors to make it more sci-fi-ey? (like post-peak oil, post terrorism dirty bomb attacks that destabilize the US, in a future ravaged by global warming, after the collapse of the western bee colonies, etc.).


******

Be advised, you are a native kiwi educated in Canada, so your credentials to write about a modern US civil war will be challenged. Writing near-fiction will require a_lot_of_research. You need to get the details right so that readers of many persuasions can suspend disbelief long enough to entertain your fictitious reason for the start of a civil war. This depends on the issue. To do this well, you might need to know the regional differences between
- Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and Pennsyltucky
- secession attempts to split California into north and south
- secession attempts to split New Jersey into north and south
- secession attempts to split Delaware into north and south
- the difference in regional politics between New England and Northern New England. And why Vermont is different
- the difference in regional politics between Austin and San Antonio and Houston and Dallas
- the difference in regional politics between NYC, upstate New York, the tunnel people (northern new jersians) and CT
- the difference between the US Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard, difference between Active Duty versus Reserves versus National Guard
- etc.

When I have enough I'll send you a copy. Right now it's just a couple pages of meaningless intro that I keep rewriting.

Leave the rewriting to the editors. once you have a manuscript you will have dozens of editors. if you obsess over wordsmithing now you are taking time away from a) research and b.) writing, and c) writing more pages.

***************

On the book tip, I will plug again Julian Comstock. Good, near-to-mid future story about a war-torn America after the collapse of industry post-peak oil. Given the industrial collapse, this future America reverts to late 19-century technology (trains, revolvers, etc). The plot was a bit cutesy at parts (esp the end), but the author created a lush, vivid world.

[Azure_Angel]

[quote author=Azure_Angel link=topic=1145.msg245386#msg245386 date=1337224961]
I'm still looking for feedback other than reference material. I don't want to be pushy, I've just never written a book before and would like some help in any form.

As at0m mentioned, it's difficult to provide feedback at this point. If, by feedback, you want input regarding the substance of your writing. What you've given us so far is more of an "elevator pitch." You've been pretty clear that you are confident in your writing, so you are not looking feedback on your writing voice. You've also been clear that you are confident on the plot vision, so you are not looking for feedback on that.

So, I don't think many of us can provide you with feedback on your idea. But we can ask you provoking questions. The point of these provoking questions is for you to contemplate, not to answer. It is an exercise to help you flesh out your imagination.

What triggered the modern civil war?

What year does this occur? Are new war-waging technologies employed, or present-day tech? Do both sides have the same tech, or is one advantaged? Who has more drones?

How are the sides decided in this civil war?
- is it 2 sides, or more? What are they fighting for?
- do they break down by states? religious or political or economic or ethnic affiliation? (this will greatly determine how the battles will be fought. right now, if fundamentalist christians tried to secede, it would be the bible-belt states versus the rest, in traditional territorial capture and hold combat. however, if it's #Occupy versus the 1%, then it would be hit and run guerrilla warfare in urban centers)

- What does the US military do? What does the National Guard do? Does it differ by branch? Does the AZ National Guard go against what the federal DOD/Army does?

- How do the major US political interests take sides (democrat, republican, libertarian, green)?

- How do the major US religions take sides?

- What do other countries do in this conflict? Canada? Mexico? UK? Venezuela? North Korea? Iran? Russia? CHINA?

Are there intervening factors to make it more sci-fi-ey? (like post-peak oil, post terrorism dirty bomb attacks that destabilize the US, in a future ravaged by global warming, after the collapse of the western bee colonies, etc.).


******

Be advised, you are a native kiwi educated in Canada, so your credentials to write about a modern US civil war will be challenged. Writing near-fiction will require a_lot_of_research. You need to get the details right so that readers of many persuasions can suspend disbelief long enough to entertain your fictitious reason for the start of a civil war. This depends on the issue. To do this well, you might need to know the regional differences between
- Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and Pennsyltucky
- secession attempts to split California into north and south
- secession attempts to split New Jersey into north and south
- secession attempts to split Delaware into north and south
- the difference in regional politics between New England and Northern New England. And why Vermont is different
- the difference in regional politics between Austin and San Antonio and Houston and Dallas
- the difference in regional politics between NYC, upstate New York, the tunnel people (northern new jersians) and CT
- the difference between the US Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard, difference between Active Duty versus Reserves versus National Guard
- etc.

When I have enough I'll send you a copy. Right now it's just a couple pages of meaningless intro that I keep rewriting.

Leave the rewriting to the editors. once you have a manuscript you will have dozens of editors. if you obsess over wordsmithing now you are taking time away from a) research and b.) writing, and c) writing more pages.

***************

On the book tip, I will plug again Julian Comstock. Good, near-to-mid future story about a war-torn America after the collapse of industry post-peak oil. Given the industrial collapse, this future America reverts to late 19-century technology (trains, revolvers, etc). The plot was a bit cutesy at parts (esp the end), but the author created a lush, vivid world.
[/quote]

THIS IS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR! THANK YOU!

I guess it's not feedback per-say, but I wanted people to give me valuable research material to justify my plot. When I pitched a more detailed version to a couple friends, they  had the same, "make believe this could happen" response. 

I have lived in the states before (part of the reason why it's centered in Arizona and California, where I lived), but I was expecting to be challenged. I WANT to be challenged. I want to get it right. I had no idea there was a place called pennsyltucky....

[Surf314]

To add to what Rummy said this is a partial reading list Brian Wood used to prepare to write Northlander's, a comic telling stories about vikings and stuff:
http://northlanders.tumblr.com/post/2428...ource-list

Actually I'm going to just push Brian Wood's complete body of work. I think he is an excellent example of someone who takes big ideas and figures out how to present them as human level stories. His Demo did a great job of describing being a 20 something disaffected youth through small stories spread through the life of a woman. Northlanders is a crazy good collection of stories about people who live in tough areas of the world and become tough because of it (there was one issue that explained how vikings did trial by combat while telling a story of trial by combat). And of course DMZ, which is really sort of an analogue for people's lives in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan told from the POV of americans.

I think one of your toughest decisions will be whether you are going to tell a big story or a small story that reveals a big story. By that I mean are you going to tell the story of the war or are you going to tell the "small story" of a person or several people that had to live through it? The big difference is the focus: if you focus on the events people will get the feeling of something epic and probably unreal; if you tell the story of people then people will be more emotionally connected and it will feel more real. I think people can empathize better the smaller the story goes and the better the characters are developed, but I think they get more impressed the bigger the story feels.

In movie terms it's like the difference between Star Wars (original) and True Grit. Star Wars was epic and I was like OMG the whole time, but when Luke lost his hand I was like "meh." True Grit was very centered around the characters and once you got wrapped in by it and the girl loses her arm you really feel bad for her, but happy she lived.

[Azure_Angel]

To add to what Rummy said this is a partial reading list Brian Wood used to prepare to write Northlander's, a comic telling stories about vikings and stuff:
http://northlanders.tumblr.com/post/2428...ource-list

Actually I'm going to just push Brian Wood's complete body of work. I think he is an excellent example of someone who takes big ideas and figures out how to present them as human level stories. His Demo did a great job of describing being a 20 something disaffected youth through small stories spread through the life of a woman. Northlanders is a crazy good collection of stories about people who live in tough areas of the world and become tough because of it (there was one issue that explained how vikings did trial by combat while telling a story of trial by combat). And of course DMZ, which is really sort of an analogue for people's lives in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan told from the POV of americans.

I think one of your toughest decisions will be whether you are going to tell a big story or a small story that reveals a big story. By that I mean are you going to tell the story of the war or are you going to tell the "small story" of a person or several people that had to live through it? The big difference is the focus: if you focus on the events people will get the feeling of something epic and probably unreal; if you tell the story of people then people will be more emotionally connected and it will feel more real. I think people can empathize better the smaller the story goes and the better the characters are developed, but I think they get more impressed the bigger the story feels.

In movie terms it's like the difference between Star Wars (original) and True Grit. Star Wars was epic and I was like OMG the whole time, but when Luke lost his hand I was like "meh." True Grit was very centered around the characters and once you got wrapped in by it and the girl loses her arm you really feel bad for her, but happy she lived.

That's an issue I've been struggling with. As a script, it was more on the lines of an epic. Jumping from battle front to battle front telling the different sides of the war, and giving reasoning to why some countries formed themselves. As a book though I've focused more on this one sergeant and his squad. I'm just not sure how to bring the grand scale down though while still keeping it personal.

[Surf314]

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=1145.msg245534#msg245534 date=1337348677]
To add to what Rummy said this is a partial reading list Brian Wood used to prepare to write Northlander's, a comic telling stories about vikings and stuff:
http://northlanders.tumblr.com/post/2428...ource-list

Actually I'm going to just push Brian Wood's complete body of work. I think he is an excellent example of someone who takes big ideas and figures out how to present them as human level stories. His Demo did a great job of describing being a 20 something disaffected youth through small stories spread through the life of a woman. Northlanders is a crazy good collection of stories about people who live in tough areas of the world and become tough because of it (there was one issue that explained how vikings did trial by combat while telling a story of trial by combat). And of course DMZ, which is really sort of an analogue for people's lives in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan told from the POV of americans.

I think one of your toughest decisions will be whether you are going to tell a big story or a small story that reveals a big story. By that I mean are you going to tell the story of the war or are you going to tell the "small story" of a person or several people that had to live through it? The big difference is the focus: if you focus on the events people will get the feeling of something epic and probably unreal; if you tell the story of people then people will be more emotionally connected and it will feel more real. I think people can empathize better the smaller the story goes and the better the characters are developed, but I think they get more impressed the bigger the story feels.

In movie terms it's like the difference between Star Wars (original) and True Grit. Star Wars was epic and I was like OMG the whole time, but when Luke lost his hand I was like "meh." True Grit was very centered around the characters and once you got wrapped in by it and the girl loses her arm you really feel bad for her, but happy she lived.

That's an issue I've been struggling with. As a script, it was more on the lines of an epic. Jumping from battle front to battle front telling the different sides of the war, and giving reasoning to why some countries formed themselves. As a book though I've focused more on this one sergeant and his squad. I'm just not sure how to bring the grand scale down though while still keeping it personal.
[/quote]

Besides Brian Wood, WWZ did a great job of presenting a big story through character stories. Although arguably Max Brooks did sacrifice some degree of character development for event story telling. It is a tricky balance, but I'm personally more drawn to stories that have a strong connection with the characters they are told through. I think the most successful of these stories don't treat the reader as an idiot and don't try to force the story telling. They imagine a person with X history and X personality and just put them in the events they want to tell and describe it. If the full events don't come through naturally the author just lets you fill in the gaps.

[Luinbariel]

Finished the first two books in Stephen Kings Dark Tower series. Bought two more today, as well as Neil Gaiman's Stardust. Reading that one first, already a quarter of the way through.

I LOVE it. How did I not read this sooner..?

[rumsfald]

Finished the first two books in Stephen Kings Dark Tower series. ...

I LOVE it. How did I not read this sooner..?

err, I can't guarantee that you will continue to love the series. I read the Gunslinger before he got his lazy ass around to writing Drawing of the Three, and it was, and remains one of my favorite novels, as well as one of my top 3 King reads (It, and the Stand, obviously). Thus, I was immensely excited when Drawing of the Three came out, and, though the story-arc isn't the best (which is ok as the book is more of a character development piece), the way it introduces the ka-tet characters was grand. I still get the willies when I think about lobstrosities.

After that, I thought the series went downhill, and had to force myself to finish the forth book, and never went further than that. There's a certain character introduced at the end of the third book (no spoilers) that was emblematic of my disappointment.

[Luinbariel]

[Elder]

sword of truth series